Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 17:36:13 GMT
From: skolander@bahnhof.se (Björn Skolander)
Subject: ZIMBABWE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE - 28th SEPTEMBER 1995.

ZIMBABWE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE - 28th SEPTEMBER 1995.

MOTION

HOMOSEXUALISM AND LESBIANISM

Fourth Order read : Adjourned debate on motion of the Evil and Iniquitous
Practice of Homosexualism and Lesbianism.

Question again proposed.

MR CHIGWEDERE {ANIAS - WEDZA}:
Mr. Speaker, I rise to lend my support to the mover and seconder of this
motion in support of the State President and Government against
homosexualism. The issue before us is not whether we should accept or reject
the abnormal and unnatural relationship of men mating with men and women
mating with women. This goes without saying, to us these people are 
cultural prostitutes and are totally unacceptable.  

The mover and the seconder dealt with these aspects and I will dwell more on
the cultural aspect. The major issue, as far as I am concerned is that of
the moral contamination of our society by these cranks and for you to
appreciate this I need to define them first. It is absolutely necessary to
know what we are talking about. We are talking about gays and lesbians. I
looked up a number of authorities  and the sum total of all these
definitions is this one. These homosexuals are people given to social
pleasures. This is one definition. The second definition says these are
people indulging in inordinate pleasure. The third definition 
describes them as licentious and this means morally rotten and promiscuous.
The fourth definition describes them as lecherous, this means lewd,
unchaste, base and given to debauchery. In the vernacular this means imbwa.
It is as simple as this and it means imbwa.

Therefore for the President and Government to facilitate the operations of
the gays and lesbians, or for any of us here or anyone here to support the
presence of these people in this country is to be an accomplice in promoting
lechery. It is to be an accomplice to the promotion of promiscuity; it is to
be accomplices in the promotion of debauchery. It means we our nation, if we
support them, we want our nation to be vile. We want our nation to be 
grossly unchaste. We want our people to be animal like and immoral in
behaviour. In cultural terms, what it amounts to is that the homosexuals are
like a witch weed in Zimbabwe, which in Shona we call bise. It is therefore
supposed to be eradicated. The moment you see it you eradicate it.  

We go further to say homosexuals are like carriers of the ebola virus the
first thing you do is to guarantee {quarantine} them before you start
treatment. It means further that the homosexuals are like victims of TB and
as such are to be hibernated in isolation hospitals and this we all know
about. The issue before us is one of national and cultural value. 
Maybe let me take you beyond the boundaries of Zimbabwe. Was it two or three
years ago when Banda lost the elections in Malawi, up to that point? The
moment you dropped at the airport in Malawi you saw everywhere written
anybody wearing dresses that do not go beneath the knees must change
immediately. In other words, women were expected to put on dresses that
cover their knees. More than that, no woman could walk up and down in 
Malawi in trousers.


As recent as yesterday Mr. Speaker, I listened to announcements over Radio
Swaziland to the effect that in spite of Beijing women are still not to wear
trousers. This is as recent as yesterday, when Swaziland announced that in
spite of Beijing, women in Swaziland are not allowed to wear trousers. Why
do Governments take steps like these?

It is because every nation has a national identity. Every nation wants to
promote and maintain its identity. But that identity is the sum total of the
national history and culture. This is what is important. Therefore our
identity here in Zimbabwe can be promoted and maintained only by Zimbabweans
because we are unlike any other. French identity can be promoted and 
maintained only by Frenchmen. Indian identity can only be promoted and
maintained by Indians. 

From this it becomes the clear duty of the State President and Government to
partly spearhead and promote our identity and partly protect that identity.
Therefore, the step taken by the State President as calculated to protect
our identity. Likewise, the step we are taking is calculated to protect that
same identity. What is at issue in cultural terms is a conflict of interest
between the whole body, which is the Zimbabwean community and part of that 
body represented by individuals or groups of individuals.

There is no quarrel over this in the event of a conflict between the whole
body and part of the whole body. We do not debate what we do because we know
what we do. The party is always sacrificed for the interest of the whole.
The whole body is far more important than any single dispensable part. When
your finger starts festering and becomes a danger to the body you cut it
off. The moment you come to the conclusion that you cannot cure the finger, 
you cut it off. The purpose for cutting it off is to preserve the body. When
your whole leg starts festering and refuses to be cured and you come to the
conclusion that you cannot cure it, you cut it off in order to preserve the
rest of the body. When I get a snake bite, my leg is bitten by a lack-mamba,
the same thing you do is prevent the invasion of the whole body by 
the viper's poison. You do that in spite of the fact that you are aware that
all the cells in the leg may die and you may end up amputating the leg. But
you are prepared to face that because the leg is less important than the
whole body.

The homosexuals are the festering finger. This is what I am getting at. The
homosexuals are the festering finger endangering the body and we chop them
off. The homosexuals are like a leg bitten by the black mamba or a viper and
what the President is doing is to apply a tourniquet to reduce the danger
from the invasion of the rest of the body by the poison from the black
mamba, the black mamba being these vipers, the homosexuals. What Parliament 
here is doing is to chop off the hand bitten by the black mamba, the black
mamba being these people. The interest of individuals or groups are always
sacrificed to the interest of the nation and there should be no debate about
that one.


Take what happened a few months ago when our soccer team was due to go to
Zaire. There was an outcry whether it should go or not. So many people
shouted they should not go. Others said if they go they should be
quarantined. Was it because we were worrying about 20 or 30 players? no, far
from it. Yes, it is true that we were worried about their individual safety,
but more importantly we feared national infection. We feared that they 
might come back as carriers of the ebola virus here and accordingly we would
end up with the whole nation in danger. Accordingly, the President and
Government have a duty to prevent national contamination by the gays and the
lesbians. We should refuse to be converted into a dumping ground of all the
cultural rejects of the whole world. Lastly, I say well done Mr. President,
well done hon. members Mr. Mudariki and Mr. Gezi. 
(HON. MEMBERS: HEAR, HEAR.)

CHIEF MANGWENDE {JONATHAN - REPRESENTS CHIEF'S COUNCIL}:
Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the President for the action he took in
protecting the culture of the country. A fact we have read in the Bible is
that God created heaven and earth, he created animals, trees and all other
things. He then went on to create man and gave him the intelligence similar
to his and more that what he had given to the animals.

The wisdom God gave to man was to choose between bad and good. All the
things he created, were two of each kind and this same principle applied to
men. He created male and female and now we have the human being who was
created with the wisdom to choose between good and bad. This very man has
changed his mind and he now wants to do something which lacks wisdom. This
is the issue we are discussing today, where a man has chosen to marry a man
and not a woman, a woman getting married to a woman and not to a man -
lesbianism and homosexuality.

I think it is necessary that we scrutinize this action by man and see why he
has chosen something contrary to what God gave him. I would like to look
also at the other side of the matter, where women are resorting to
lesbianism. We should look at this case and see what pleasures women get in
marrying each other and what pleasure men get in engaging in homosexuality.
We have read in the Bible, where God said I create you so that you may 
multiply on this earth. How then are we going to multiply if we do not do it
the right way? Are we going to produce any children if we promote lesbianism?

I think we must ask ourselves whether these are the good cultures we can
import from other countries. The hon. member, Mr. Chigwedere, explained that
if you are going to adopt such cultures, then it means that our culture is
going to the dogs. I believe that even dogs never chose to be called dogs.

I believe sometime ago that the dogs held a meeting and went to the
paramount chie and enquired why they were called dogs as they did not want
this name. The Almighty checked whether the dogs have changed their minds
and improved their behaviour by sending them to sleep in a house where there
was a big pot full of meat. The dogs started behaving like dogs. They smelt
the meat and broke the big pot and ate all the meat. Early in the morning
they went to the chief and asked him, "now we are ready, I think you must
change our names from dogs to something else". The chief went to the
house to check whether they had really accomplished the task he had put them
up to. He discovered all the meat had been eaten by the dogs. Then he said
to the dogs, from today on you shall be real dogs Therefore, even us, by
trying to change our mode of life and our culture, even those who are still
intending to engage themselves in these practices - honestly these people
are just competing in being dogs with the dogs.


Mr. Speaker, it surprises me most when a nation would come to think of
changing their culture to adopt such practices. I believe that this type of
practices is almost identical to the practice of rapists of children and so
on. If our culture is being held to ransom like this, it is not necessary
that we charge these people who are putting our culture into disrepute? It
is a fact that there is no smoke without fire. It is true Mr. Speaker, that
when the President spoke against this practice, he must have heard rumours
about this kind of thing. I would want to ask whether our legal persons may
now come in and draft laws which will prevent this kind of practice. I would
not want to pin point some churches saying that they are engaged in
homosexualism but I am very sure that there are some churches which engage
in this. If there are such churches, I believe they should come to us and
show us in the Bible where it is written that you can engage in
homosexualism then I believe if it is there in the Bible where we may engage
in homosexualism, but I am sure there is nothing like this in the Bible.

It surprises me why man was given such great wisdom by God but is now
failing to behave himself and the animals are behaving better than men. We
can see that animals are behaving in a better way. Cows know that they have
got to go to the bulls only and the bulls know that they have to go to the
cows. A male goat only matches up with a she goat.

I believe if we can now turn to the Bible and read where the people of Sodom
sinned against God, they were destroyed by God. This is exactly what might
be happening to us. I believe we must keep to our culture where we do not
engage in Homosexualism so that we are not destroyed by God. 

I join others in supporting the President in denouncing homosexualism. I
believe we will never have such practices happening in the rural areas. But
if it comes to that in some areas, it should be nipped in the bud.
Zimbabwean people are well respected for sticking to their culture. I do not
believe that there is anything inviting us to swerve from our normal way of
life. I like the way the hon. member, Mr. Chigwedere explained it and the
way he summarised it by saying people who engage in homosexualism are dogs.
I am sure no one of us would like to be labelled a dog. Even dogs themselves
we feel they do not like that title. I hope Mr. Speaker, this practice will
never be supported in this country.
(HON. MEMBERS: HEAR, HEAR.)

MRS. CHIDZONGA {MAVIS - MHONDORO}:
I would like to agree with my colleagues the hon. members who have spoken
before me by condemning lesbianism and homosexualism. But I have problems
with the issues that they have brought up. They have condemned, we have got
all the information but we do not seem to come up with the solution. What we
are saying to Zimbabwe, what are we going to do about it in Zimbabwe because
the situation whether we like it or not, whether we talk about it all day
and all night, our children are going through it. Men and women are going
through it. Soon after the war or even during the war, we remember a lot of
the youths made a lot of money from homosexualism especially young boys,
they made a lot of money. Some of them were actually married but this has
gone on and it is now increasing just like the drug problem that we have in
the country. But we are not coming up with the solution. What exactly do we
want to do with the situation that we have in Zimbabwe? We appreciate we do
not want it in our society but now that we have the men - even in the rural
areas munonyatso ziva kuti baba ava havasi right, unonzwa vachiti baba ava
havambofa vakarora. Why do you think he does that? The old people actually
know that this man is not right and he will never get married and they know
he is interested in other men, but what are we doing about that?
Our children are getting worse and worse but what are we doing?
It is like the drug problems that I was talking about. Our townships are
full of people and children who sniff glue, vanotora mbanje, what are we
doing about that. 

So, I would like to hear from the members as they argue, solutions so that
we have suggestions of how we are going to go about it.
(HON. MEMBERS: HEAR, HEAR.)

MR. MUTYAMBIZ {N. - HURUNGWE EAST}:
I stand up to support his Excellency the president in taking this bold and
prestigious stance in condemning homosexualism in this country. This
activity is not just evil to our traditional culture but also before the
eyes of the Lord.

On that note, I would like to call for all traditional forces in this
country to rally behind the State President in the eradication of
homosexualism. I feel that all those who know homos in this country should
make them be brought before the courts of law and be tried for their evil
activity. The law was make by man and feel we can still have those
laws to eradicate that evil.

I would like to take this opportunity to advise those countries which
sympathise with evil activities that they should not condemn our State
president. As a nation, we rally behind him and support him totally.
Whatever he says is the thinking and will of our own people. We do not have
room for that activity.

I feel accepting such a activity in this country will totally undermine our
own stance as a Government. It will also undermine our culture and degrade
us to nothing. There is definitely need to put more force behind the whole
issue so that we come up with an answer to it. I can quote from other
speakers who have given their own suggestions. If it is true that this has
been going on for a long time, then some of us were not in picture. I do not
think if it was actually going on in a given place, we should have been
enlightened and the Government should have taken action against it. We
cannot just wait for the President to come up with the answer.

As a nation we should come up with an answer and condemn it totally. It is
high time we should try and eradicate the whole issue and remain as a nation
with its own dignity. If we have such characters among us, then our dignity
is definitely undermined.
(HON. MEMBERS: HEAR, HEAR)

MRS. TUNGAMIRAI {PAMELA - MABVUKU}: 
Mr. Speaker, it is clear that almost everybody who is standing is supporting
the President's stand on this issue. In that regard, I think it is high time
we started discussing solutions as the hon. member, Mrs. Chidzonga, has
suggested because our children are being affected by this. It looks like it
is becoming an international problem, but we, in Zimbabwe have a culture and
that is our identity on the globe. We would like to preserve our culture.
Our culture is very clear in no uncertain terms it condemns this activity.


Mr. Speaker, since part of our syllabus has got a Department of Culture we
have the Ministry of Education and Culture and our culture which we have
training our children so far encompasses traditional dancing et cetera.
Maybe by now it calls for the incorporation of a section in that department
which will concentrate on that particular issue and probably whilst
compiling their syllabus they might also include some guidelines to guide
the children. It must be mentioned throughout from Grade 1. We should not
ignore things as we were doing in the past. The reason why it has crept in
our society is because we have not been transparent about this issue. The
problem with us is that, we think anything to do with sex must be hidden
subject. It is not something to be debated in families.

Since AIDS is being taught to our children, we must also incorporate such
issues. Let us be transparent. We must also convince them as to why this is
wrong and why it is not part of our culture. It might be culture in the
western world but not our culture here. We would like to be proud of our
identity as Zimbabweans. Wherever we go all over the world, we would want to
be identified with our culture. For our children to carry over
from us, it must form part of the syllabus in schools. The Department of
Culture has got to come up with a programme where our children can start to
be told about the evils of homosexuality. We can debate about it here and we
are there to protect them and as parents we are there to protect our
children but as legislators we are there to protect the nation. Let us all
rally behind our President and devise a method of curbing this evil
which has crept into our society.
(HON. MEMBERS: HEAR, HEAR)

MR. GEZI {BORDER - MUZARABANI}:
I move that the debate do now adjourn.


MR. MUGANGAVARI {F. - KADOMA EAST}:
I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Friday, 29th September, 1995.

______________________________________________________________________
NOTES :

ALL THE ABOVE MPs ARE MEMBERS OF THE RULING PARTY ZANU PF
{FIRST NAMES WHERE POSSIBLE - CONSTITUENCY}
PARLIAMENT ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY 3rd OCTOBER 1995.
HANSARD NOT AVAILABLE AS THIS STAGE
______________________________________________________________________

GAYS AND LESBIANS OF ZIMBABWE (GALZ)
encourages you to write letters to your foreign affairs ministry to register
your protest. 
PLEASE urge them to communicate this to the Zimbabwean authorities.

Comments/Letters of protest can also be sent to :

  The Zimbabwean Parliament The Office of the President
  P O Box CY 298Private Bag 7700
  CausewayCauseway
  HARARE, ZIMBABWE  HARARE, ZIMBABWE